Talk:Zagreus

Regarding Relations
@ anyone watching wiki activity, I have a dilemma to propose before I go editing en masse across pages regarding this but I have a bone to pick with some of the relationships on character pages. As of my typing this, Zagreus is listed as foster siblings with Nyx's children and Meg (and these things are reflected across other pages), which.. I get why, given the dialogue in the game. But also this is causing a lot of problems with fans mistakenly thinking that 1) these characters were raised as siblings 2) this is incest, in which neither of these things are true. The situation with Nyx is more that she is seen as a mother figure in general, so if anything she takes on a general caretaker role towards those under her rather than specifically a mother role. Zagreus was not raised as siblings with Thanatos or Megaera, and there is dialogue where Zagreus himself tells Nyx that he always had a feeling that Nyx was not actually his mother, so I feel it's incorrect for these characters to be listed as foster siblings. Also there is a tweet from earlier this year directly from Supergiant's twitter in which it is stated that Zagreus and Thanatos are childhood friends. Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? Bereou (talk) 06:51, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Technically, the term "foster sibling" is correct, but I understand where you're coming from. Even more so, because their relationship doesn't feel "sibling-like". Personally, I would rather have it say "childhood friend" than "foster brother" for Thanatos, but the fact that "foster brother" is technically correct makes this rather difficult. It's also a fact that when you forge a bond with Hypnos, he asks you to be his best friend; again, giving the impression that they do not think of each other as siblings. If more people watching wiki activity, can weigh in on this, maybe we could find a solution, cause I can see how this creates a problem. Anumberix (talk) 07:20, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Technically, sure, but within the context of the narrative, it technically isn't. As you pointed out with Hypnos, none of these characters treat each other as siblings or refer to one another as siblings, save for Hypnos and Thanatos (or Meg and the other Furies). Additionally, Supergiant has tried to avoid mentions of incest where applicable, so I feel like the wiki turning around and listing relations as foster siblings is doing a disservice to Supergiant. Context is important here, just because technically the terminology itself is correct doesn't mean that it's correct in the manner of how it's presented in the game. Another issue is also the Cerberus family portrait, as it's something that can be purchased within the game and contradicts every part of the narrative pointing out that everyone more or less existed well before Zagreus was born. I wish Supergiant would clarify that this portrait is more a fun easter egg or something and has no bearing on canon. Bereou (talk) 18:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I think I agree with you here. I'm convinced the best option is to remove all the "foster sibling" relations on the character pages, but I don't know whether it's better to just change the term to something different (like "childhood friend" with Thanatos) or remove them from the relations section entirely. I'm a bit hesitant to go and edit this now, cause I'd rather have more people giving their feedback on this. I still agree with you though and I think we should just go ahead and edit the pages if nobody else responds to this. Anumberix (talk) 19:33, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah for sure! I might ask for opinions on the server and see what people think, but I kinda agree with simply removing these. I just really felt this needed to be addressed because I'm seeing people on like.. twitter and such accuse people who like the Meg/Zag or Than/Zag ships of being into incest because they searched it and it pops up on the wiki, even though nothing in the game really supports their relationships as having been anything more than friends prior to that point, save for the references of the relationship Megaera previously had with Zagreus. Bereou (talk) 19:57, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm strongly and adamantly against any removal of information as it's presented in the game. My standpoint is that it honestly isn't the Hades Wikis responsibility nor purpose to pad or censor aspects of the game to avoid the discomfort or disapproval of what i imagine is a rather small portion of the player base. - Thanatos, Hypnos and Charon are factually presented as Nyxs' children and see her as their birth mother. - Zagreus was raised in the belief until the start of the game that Nyx was also his birthmother. This means that Zagreus grew up believing them to be his halfsiblings on Nyxs' side as they share a mother but not father. However, as they find out that they aren't actually related by blood they are in fact foster siblings. "Foster siblings are children who are raised in the same foster home, foster children of the person's parents, or foster parents' biological children"

This is Greek mythology we are talking about, even if the game obviously diverges from it it's still connected to it. Most of it is actually supposed to be straight up Incestuous all over the place - and that is at best, considering rampant bestiality, rape and straight up divine sexual degeneracy. If you are gonna try and make it family friendly you are gonna have a hard time keeping it even remotely close to the source. Supergiant Games softened it in most places, but it's still close to the source.

For example; In the game Demeter is not only Persephones mother, she is also Hades foster brother - meaning she is both Zagreus grandmother and aunt. And lo and behold, that also means the wife of Hades is the daughter of his foster sister - that is, his Niece. That also means that Persephone technically is both Zagreus mother and his cousin. And the dude that got them together was Zeus, Demeters other foster brother. Meaning Zeus kidnapped his foster sisters daughter and gave her as wife to his brother. Additionally, Persephone mentions how she was surprised when she didn't grow older - meaning she was expecting to grow old and die like a mortal, as her father was a mortal. In the real mythology, Persephone is actually not only daughter of Demeter, but also the daughter of the guy that, as Poseidon points out, banged the whole countryside - good ol' Zeus. In the mythology the whole bunch (Demeter, Hades, Hestia, Hera, Zeus, and Poseidon) also had the same titan parents - Cronus and Rhea. Cronus and Rhea where siblings, born to Uranus and Gaia. Uranus of course being both the husband and son of Gaia. In the game canon, Demeters parents are Hyperion and Theia instead - thus making Zeus, Poseidon and Hades not her actual siblings. But as they refer to each other as foster Brothers and foster Sister, they grew up together. Thing is, Theia and Hyperion are still Titans... And again, all Titans are siblings born to Uranus and Gaia. That would make Demeter a little more then foster sister to the brothers - she has to be their "Double Cousin", that is cousin on both her mother and fathers side. And they all have the same grandmother and grandfather, as their parents are all siblings.

Why are people getting all flustered about Zag Zaging his foster siblings? They are Gods, not people. All these family concepts are vague at best and honestly doesn't mean the same thing to them as they do to mortals.

TLDR; This is based on Greek Mythology - if people have a problem with Incest i would recommend buying a game named Hades as much as i would recommend a vegan buying a game called Slaughterhouse Simulator. They are presented as they are in the game by the creator of the game, Supergiant Games. If the Wiki feels that it doesn't want to present facts about the game as the game presents them based on it upsetting some people, it's not a wiki. The wiki is supposed to present information complementing the game, as it's presented or works in the game. It's not our responsibility nor place to accommodate people having issues with the game, if they have a problem with it they can take it up with Supergiant Games. TheMagePie (talk) 21:15, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * "I'm strongly and adamantly against any removal of information as it's presented in the game." Have you read my grievances at all? This is literally the entire point, the wiki is presented information that is not presented in the game. At no point are the characters referred to as foster siblings, nor do they treat one another as such. They act as friends, Supergiant themselves have said they are friends, not siblings. So therefore, the wiki information is not correct. Good on you for taking the time to make this lengthy rebuttal but I think you have misread what the issue is here. Please fully read through my stance before rebuking on the basis of "this should be changed only because incest claims," because I am not suggesting removal of information on a moral basis; this is simply a side effect of what I feel is incorrect information.


 * Allow my own tldr: We are spreading factually incorrect information that does not line with the context of the narrative material, which has resulted in the moral side effect I metnioned that you chose to focus on instead of the argument itself. Bereou (talk) 21:40, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Hey so my assessment was correct. As per my thread with Greg on twitter. Notable mentions: "I don’t see how someone who played Hades could conclude Meg is Zagreus’ foster sister. There is no evidence in the game to support that. Nyx is Meg’s boss and advisor" and "Thanatos is Zagreus’ childhood friend. They always knew they were not related despite Nyx also raising Zagreus."

So to reiterate: my entire issue was that I disagreed with the foster siblings label because it is not supported in the narrative, and thus we are presenting misinformation. This is directly from the head writer at Supergiant, hopefully that puts this argument to rest. Bereou (talk) 23:27, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Hey man, you asked about peoples opinion and i simply gave mine. If you interpreted my thoughts on the query you presented as aggressive enough to warrant such an response I'm sorry. And sure, you do make a point in that in no point in the game are they actually ever referred to as foster siblings. Mainly i would suspect because logically both Hypnos and Thanatos should have been ages old when Zagreus was born. However, i still disagree, with the point that 1: Nyx and Zagreus had, and still has, has a mother and son relationship. 2: Zagreus was raised believing he was a sibling to Thanatos and Hypnos, even if he doubted it. When the truth was revealed it was still a shock to him, meaning that Nyx not being his mother and Thanatos and Hypnos not being his brothers was still a strange shift for him.


 * "Zagreus To Persephone: And I'm sure you know it's not a competition between you and Nyx. I just get the benefit of having two great mothers rather than one."
 * "Zagreus to Nyx: Somehow, I always knew. You know... that you were not my birthmother. I mean, look at Hypnos and Thanatos. There's no way that I could have been related to them, everybody knew, and yet... when I finally learned for certain, it was still a shock.
 * "Nyx to Zagreus: I still find I call you child. Is your preference that I cease to use such terms, from this point on?
 * Zagreus to Nyx: No, Nyx, please, it's... quite all right. You may not have given birth to me, but you still cared for me. I never doubt that."
 * "Zagreus to Nyx: I think of you always, Nyx. You raised me as your own, and I am grateful for it."
 * Combined with the definition of foster siblings as i mentioned previously "Foster siblings are children who are raised in the same foster home, foster children of the person's parents, or foster parents' biological children".
 * "Nyx to Zagreus: You may not be born of me, but I raised you like one of my own. And I have cared for you as I am capable."
 * Nyx raised Zagreus and is his de facto Foster-Mother. This makes Zagreus a foster-Brother to Thanatos and Hypnos, as he is a foster child to their mother Nyx.


 * Regarding Meg;
 * "Zagreus to Nyx: Nyx, you raised Megaera as one of your own, the same as me, so could you... tell me more about what she was like, back then?"
 * Meg was raised by Nyx as her own, same as Zagreus, making Nyx Megs' foster mother. As Zagreus was also raised by Nyx, they are foster-siblings.


 * And yes, i did read your grievances and tried to respond to give you and opinion. I think what mainly is happening here is that the massive timeline combined with them literally being divine beings makes all these concepts weird. But as Nyx has been raising all these people, to my understanding they are de facto foster-siblings.
 * And you are welcome for my previous "lengthy rebutal", as are you for this one that i took quite some time to to write and gather all the dialogues to help you in your query - and once again I'm sorry if you perceive my response as hostile for some reason, as that was not and is not my intention. If it's simply me disagreeing with your initial assessment, i honestly don't see the point of asking for peoples opinion. TheMagePie (talk) 00:00, 5 October 2020 (UTC)


 * You're good! I did ask for opinions, yes, but immediately resorting to aggression does not foster meaningful discussion and I felt you came on aggressively for the wrong reasons right from the start. You immediately attacked something I mentioned that was not even the primary point of why I was bringing this up, and so I did not feel obligated to fully respond to you if you felt my issue was the moral basis of the argument rather than the accuracy of the information we were presenting. I do very much value information based on accuracy, not on the editor's personal bias, so I apologize in turn if you felt I was presenting myself otherwise. Either way the point remains that we now have confirmation directly from the source that the foster siblings label is not the intended interpretation. Bereou (talk) 00:12, 5 October 2020 (UTC)


 * An additional note to earlier links: "Looking into this further, I found two instances in the game where Megaera’s backstory could be misconstrued; one metaphorical remark in the Codex and a reference in one Zagreus conversation. Simple changes may alleviate the misconceptions while not changing any of the substance." We could potentially be seeing some text be adjusted in a future patch, based on the comment about alleviating misconceptions. Bereou (talk) 04:31, 5 October 2020 (UTC)