Talk:Eternal Spear

Titan Blood requirement for unlocking Aspect of Guan Yu The post by Supergiant about unlocking Guan Yu (https://twitter.com/supergiantgames/status/1258478588870844417?lang=en) does not mention how much Titan Blood is required for it to be revealed but other sources mention needing to spend 5 or 6. It's possible that anywhere from 3 to 6 TB are needed. --Boofsader (talk) 04:29, 26 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Because it doesn't necessarily have a blood requirement. The data simply says you need a minimum of 5 aspects unlocked. I don't believe Zagreus aspects count, as they are simply the default state of the weapon Bereou (talk) 05:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I've been trying to track down sources but haven't had much luck. I know Guan Yu was introduced in patch 036 but haven't seen any official mention of the unlock requirements in subsequent patch notes. So far the Twitter post is all I've found. Do you know the source of the data? Is it the game files or player experimentation? I found some anecdotal evidence it could be "invest titan blood into aspects from 3 different weapons" (https://www.reddit.com/r/HadesTheGame/comments/iwzwgd/guan_yu_unlock/g668van/). And another comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/HadesTheGame/comments/iwzwgd/guan_yu_unlock/g66f84o/) in the same post mentioned getting the activation phrase with only Zagreus aspects.--Boofsader (talk) 15:42, 26 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Hm I'm not sure, I don't think the 'collect all aspects' achievement counts Zagreus aspects, the question of whether revealing 4th aspects counts the default or not has always been prevalent. The relevant data for Guan Yu is under a dialogue trigger by the name of AchillesRevealsGuanYuAspect01 and only says RequiredMinUnlockedWeaponEnchantments = 5 in regard to aspects. There's no further specification for it. It's strange the supergiant tweet says 3 aspects while the data says 5. Edit; I will note that Achilles remarking on Chiron and Achilles aspect is required now, as far as I recall the early requirements when Guan Yu first dropped was only some dialogue about the Infernal Arms aspects themselves, not any specific ones. Bereou (talk) 18:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Testing Guan Yu Unlock Requirements
I spent the day testing this. It takes a minimum of 5 or 6 TB put into non-Zagreus aspects.

Tests were done on a new save with 18 escape attempts, several Hades fights and 1 Hades "kill." I had the Fated List and 6 TB.

Combinations that work:


 * 5 TB in 5 weapons with 1 point each (1/1/1/1/1)
 * 6 TB in 4 weapons works in one combination - 1 weapon with 2 separate aspects (eg. first rank of Nemesis and Poseidon for 3 TB total) and the remaining 3 points put into 3 different weapons (eg. 3/1/1/1). If you have 3/1/1/1 with 2 ranks in one ability (for example, rank 2 Poseidon) it didn't work.

This seems to imply that TB must be put into 5 separate non-zag aspects (it's ok if the non-zag aspects are in the same weapon).

Other combinations that didn't work for me - 2/2/1/1, 3/2/1 (with the 3 being 2 separate aspects like rank 1 Nemesis and Poseidon), any combination with zag aspects that reduced the number of non-zag aspects below 5. I did many other tests (all of which came out negative) and there are combinations that I'm sure I missed. I'm not certain I've found all working combinations.

I tested 5 TB into 5 weapons - 4 non-zag and 1 zag - this didn't work (did several runs to wait). When I added another TB to a non-zag aspect of the 6th weapon I got the phrase soon after. I tried starting with 3 weapons - 1/1/1 (nothing), added a TB to another weapon for 1/1/1/1 (nothing with several runs between each change), added another TB to 5th weapon for 1/1/1/1/1 and got the activation phrase.

I couldn't get any combination of 3 aspects to work.

When a combination did work, Achilles gave the phrase soon after:
 * If he was present after a run, he would either give the phrase or talk about a weapon and give the phrase on the following run.
 * If he was absent after a run, when I returned after a subsequent run (if he was present) he would give the phrase or talk about a weapon and then give the phrase on the following run.
 * If he was talking to Hades, on the following run he would talk to Zag about his conversation with Hades and in the run after that would give the phase (or talk about a weapon and give the phrase after).

This was consistent as far as I could tell.

The twitter message also said that "having discussed the true nature of the Infernal Arms with Achilles before" was also a prerequisite BUT patch 046 has a line that says:

"A conversation with Achilles about Aspects is no longer needed for him to reveal the Aspect of Guan Yu"

I don't know if I had that conversation with Achilles in my save before my tests.

I'm going to change the listed requirements based on the above results.

--Boofsader (talk) 02:13, 27 September 2020‎ (UTC)


 * I'm not sure patch 46 applies any longer. The line in question was indeed not required after that, and listed as RequiredFalseTextLines = { "AchillesAboutWeaponEnchantments01" }, but it seems to be required again as far as I can tell. Under the Guan Yu flags it says RequiredAnyTextLines = { "AchillesMiscMeeting02", "AchillesMiscMeeting04", "AchillesAboutWeaponEnchantments01", "AchillesAboutChironAspect01", "AchillesAboutAchillesAspect01" } which is pretty clear in that Achilles needs to remark on the aspects overall (the one where Zag says they can change shape and Achilles ends it saying he will probably not be the last owner of the Infernal Arms), and on the aspects related to himself, Chiron and Achilles. You need to have last used those aspects for Achilles to comment on them.


 * Thanks, that helps - I didn't know what conversation "nature of the infernal arms" was referring to. I remember seeing that dialogue sometimes (change shape) as well as comments about aspects related to himself, but don't remember in what tests I saw it. I'm pretty sure it's after my save point though so I'll test for it.--Boofsader (talk) 14:23, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Though I guess my theory that Zagreus aspects don't count was correct? Your testing seems to indicate as much. Bereou (talk) 05:07, 27 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, Zagreus aspects don't count. I did a lot of tests with Zag aspects only and in combination with non-Zag aspects.--Boofsader (talk) 14:23, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Verified Zagreus aspects still do not count for revealing Guan Yu in patch 050 (game version 1.36401). --Boofsader (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Conversation Requirements Testing Results
Starting with the same save game base as the previous tests except 1 run earlier (17 runs complete):

The first thing I did was add 1 TB each into weapons so that I had 5 put into non-zag aspects. After that run Achilles gave the activation phrase. I continued to play that save until I had 54 runs complete, keeping track of what conversations about weapons came up afterwards. This is long past the point where he's run out of things to say. During that time he mentioned weapons when I had them equipped after a run - the spear, bow, fists, and rail. He didn't bring up the shield or sword (maybe he talked about those in the earlier 17 runs). So unless these conversations repeat (they didn't over the runs I did) this was the first time they came up and weren't necessary to reveal Guan Yu.

During those runs he never talked about how the weapons can change shape.

I then started again from the earlier save (at 17 runs complete). This time I didn't try to reveal Guan Yu (just let myself die in the first or second room). After 6 runs (run 23), he started the conversation in which Zag talked about how the weapons can change shape and Achilles said Zag wouldn't be the last owner.

Assuming weapon-related dialogue doesn't repeat:


 * That general conversation about weapons changing shape does not need to happen in order to receive Guan Yu's activation phrase
 * That conversation will only happen before receiving Guan Yu's activation phrase

--Boofsader (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Conversation Requirements Testing Results - Round 2
I've done another set of tests using a new save in which I kept track of the conversations I had with Achilles before revealing Guan Yu.

Starting from a save with 12 escape attempts, 10 TB, all non-hidden aspects revealed, and no dialogue with Achilles relating to weapons having happened previously. I also never used the spear before this point, so never had a conversation with Achilles about the spear or any of its aspects.

I put 7 points into 5 aspects of 3 weapons (to also test whether Guan Yu could be revealed with 3 weapons - if it could, this would verify the rule is "5 separate non-Zagreus aspects as I had previously also tested with 4 weapons), reset my mirror, bumped Hard Labor from the pact to max, and I did 10 tests in which I let myself die in the first or second chambers, talked to Achilles, and repeated until I got the waking phrase (tracking what he talked about, taking special note about dialogue about weapons).

In all 10 tests, Achilles had a discussion about weapons before giving the waking phrase. There wasn't a single specific discussion about weapons that was required - just 1 of 3:


 * Achilles: "The sealed weapons by your chambers; your father won't observe their absence, I don't think..."
 * Zagreus: "Achilles, wanted to ask you more about the weapons I've been using. They can change shape!..."
 * Zagreus: "Happen to know whom I should thank for the weapons just outside my chambers, Achilles?..."

Whenever I got one of those conversations, I would get the waking phrase after the following run. In the 10 tests, he never brought up one of those 3 conversations and didn't give the waking phrase on the next run. It's possible there are more weapon conversations available that I didn't get in my 10 tests.

The 10 tests took anywhere from 2 to 14 runs before I got the waking phrase (in order of the tests I did: 2, 3, 4, 3, 14, 11, 7, 5, 9, and 10).

With my previous test (starting with 17 runs complete) in which I got a waking phrase immediately after putting TB into the aspects (no conversation about weapons in the run before getting the waking phrase), I'm guessing that I must have had one or more of the above 3 conversations with Achilles in the past. The game may have paired the reveal with a specific weapons conversation and:


 * If the paired weapons conversation was previously had, would give the waking phrase immediately
 * If the paired weapons conversation hadn't happened yet, then that conversation would come up followed by the waking phrase after the next escape attempt

Also in my previous test, the waking phrase came very quickly for me - I think that's because I had spoken to Achilles more times, exhausting more possible conversation options. In this test with the earlier save, more conversations were available, so it took longer to get the waking phrase.

A way I could test this is to do about 25 runs (until I exhaust conversation options with Achilles) then put TB into the weapons and see how quickly I get the waking phrase. I'm guessing it would come very quickly.

I also checked again to see if Zagreus aspects counted (since there was a recent patch) - they still don't.

I did notice, though, that on the second run after putting TB into the Zag aspects I got one of the 3 dialogue options about weapons. Because of this I think that dialogue about the weapons is queued after putting TB into a weapon. If this is true, we should be able to exhaust the weapons dialogue by putting TB into a weapon, waiting for the dialogue, putting another in, waiting again, and repeating until no more weapons dialogue comes up. After that, can see what happens if the rest of Guan Yu's TB requirements are met (I think it should give the waking phrase without a weapons discussion in the previous run).

--Boofsader (talk) 01:00, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Followup Conversation Test
Starting with the same initial save as the previous test (12 runs complete), I did suicide runs (without putting TB into anything) until Achilles ran out of things to say. During that time, he had 1 conversation about weapons (Hades not noticing the weapons' absence). I'm guessing that one may have gotten queued because I revealed (with keys) the Fists and Rail on the run prior.

When Achilles ran out of things to say (no "!" over his head after a run), I added 1 TB to Chaos Shield, then did a run. After that run, Achilles had the dialogue about weapons changing shape waiting. Following run, dialogue about Daedalus (maybe because on that run I had a hammer), then on the run after that, had nothing to say again. Added 1 TB to Nemesis, went on 2 more runs - nothing. Added 1 TB to Chiron Bow - nothing, 1 TB to Achilles Spear - nothing.

At this point I have 4 TB in 4 weapons so with the next TB spent, I should get the waking phrase.

I backed up the game at this point and restored after the next 10 runs (playing until he gave the waking phrase).

On 9 out of 10 runs, he gave the waking phrase immediately after spending the 5th TB - no conversation about weapons before. On one of those runs he was absent and then gave the waking phrase on the next run.

This is interesting because I still had 1 weapons conversation left unsaid: "Happen to know whom I should thank for the weapons just outside my chambers, Achilles?..."

Even though this was available, it never came up - I always got the waking phrase. If it were a matter of probability, I should have gotten it 3 or so times out of 10. So now I'm wondering if the game considers the dialogue requirement fulfilled after 1 or 2 past weapon conversations.

Conclusions:


 * Conversations about weapons are a prerequisite but can happen at any point in the past. These conversations can be triggered by putting TB into weapons before meeting the Guan Yu requirements.
 * The dialogue about the waking phrase happens randomly in the midst of all other available conversations.
 * How quickly a player gets the waking phrase depends on how many other conversations Achilles can talk to them about.
 * If a player has a habit of not talking to Achilles, they would have a large "dialogue pool" so could potentially wait a long time for the waking phrase.
 * Players who have very little dialogue with Achilles remaining will get the waking phrase very quickly.
 * If players do things that Achilles can comment about while doing runs and waiting for the waking phrase (like beating Hades and talking to Persephone afterwards), more dialogue will get added to the "pool" potentially leading to a longer wait time for the waking phrase.

--Boofsader (talk) 18:07, 5 October 2020 (UTC)